The Christian Seder segment exposed the worst of Christian arrogance. For Christians and other non-Jews to attend and participate in seders is completely appropriate, both as a learning experience and to share in the spiritual concepts expressed in the Passover tradition. To co-opt another religion’s – another people’s – sacred rites is insulting and demeaning, and to revise the *meaning* of the elements of the celebration to fit into a religious tradition which has a history of persecuting the very people whose rites are being hijacked is execrable. This is my belief, and I am not a Jew or a Christian.

Regarding Christian seders–the Passover seder is one of the core rituals of Judaism. To stage a parody of it that perverts its symbols and repudiates Judaism as a whole is obscene. These people, however well-intentioned, are in the same category as Satanists who hold Black Masses to mock the Catholic Church.

Judaism and Christianity, despite protestations to the contrary are the same religion. Beneath the veneer of crucifixes and yarmulkes, matzoh balls and communion wafers is the same “God.” Oh sure, the apple is not the apple tree, but if splitting hairs is your thing then no amount of ritual participation will reveal anything more than a feeling of self satisfaction that you have a monopoly on truths the rest of us will never share.

You apparently think your rituals themselves are more important than what they represent….and no doubt enjoy the menu more than the meal.

This is my informed opinion, but I am neither Christian or Jewish. Lighten up.

As a pastor, ritual integrity is very important to me, and just co-opting another faith’s or denomination’s ritual is simply lazy, especially since Christians already have a ritual which is a rough parallel of the seder – the Easter Vigil.

With a little research, this community could have rediscovered the imagery of the resurrection as reflected in the Hebrew scriptures with an already established, if somewhat ignored, Christian ritual and not have to undermine some other tradition’s ritual. We Christians have enough of our own symbols and rituals. We don’t need to steal them from other traditions.

Judaism is not Christianity. Anyone who says they are the same is quite UNinformed. “Go and learn” (You’ll find that Jews consider Islam to not be avodah zarah, and closer to Jewish belief/practice than Christianity.)

Christians are celebrating Jews leaving Egypt? Why? Did they leave with us? I don’t need Christians to “help” me celebrate my freedom. As a matter of fact, some rabbis PROHIBIT Non-Jewish participation, exceptions made only for those learning in order to convert.

And the Jews teaching these Christians? Most are also sadly uninformed. Do any of them even know that there are many of us who won’t use wet matzah for most of Pesach? That means the knaidelach are off the menu, except on the eighth day. That the teacher doesn’t know this shows that we have the blind leading the blind. Sigh….my heart breaks from the state of Jewish knowlege among Jews….

I just spent a rather frustrating car ride listening to your segment on American Farming Statistics with Carol House, wondering, the entire time, what exactly, in acres, constitutes a small, medium-sized, or large farm. Yikes! In the future, please remember to define your terms.

While Christians, Jews and Muslims quibble over how many names God has, how to spell it (if one may even commit it to paper), whether to eat their matzoh wet or dry and on which day at which precise moment, do you think their respective Gods care one way or the other? You should be tickled and thrilled that someone of another faith sees the beauty and relevance of your rituals and adapts them in their own divine dialogue, just as Jews/Christians/Muslims borrowed (or as one pastor said “steal”) from our mutual pagan ancestors.

Many of my multi-cultural, multi-faith friends will continue to celebrate and be inspired by Christmas, Hannukah or Rammadan all under the same roof even as you rail against the blurring of your precious lines. Welcome to the 21st century.

Are we not talking to the same God here, or is your particular heaven as segregated as your particular bit of earth? If you choose to continually emphasize the differences rather than the common ground you do your religions, and humanity a disservice. But that’s between you and your God, whatever his or her name is.

It does not surprise me at all to hear Christians caught in the act of stealing the Jewish Seder.
Remember that the Christians stole their very God from the Jews when they stole the Jewish holy book as the first half of their own.
Later they managed to steal the (Hellenic)Roman Empire.
Do not be surprised when this kleptomaniacal religion cannonizes the Dalai Lama after his passing as a Christian saint.

How do you steal a God?

Robert Emmett is wrong–Judaism and Christianity are profoundly different at pretty much every level. Minimizing these differences with bumper sticker truisms like “all religions are basically the same” is like saying that, since all languages are only words, if you understand English then you can automatically understand Chinese. And no, I’m interested in monopolizing truths for myself. Anyone, Jewish or not, is welcome to attend a Passover seder, at least at our house. The point is that, even if you’re a religious ignoramus, you should at least understand that rituals exist for reasons and those reasons are worthy of respect. Celebrating Passover with a seder in which all the symbols are made to point to Christianity is no more appropriate than celebrating Easter by spitting on a cross.

Dear Mr. Emmett:

The breadth and depth of your ignorance, sir, is truly astounding. Judaism and Christianity, while related, are certainly not “the same religion”. Consider the following facts:

1) Christians worship a god who will condemn the whole world to eternal torture for the “crime” of a remote ancestor (“Original Sin”). This god demands a human sacrifice to be appeased, though he is willing to make the sacrifice be his own (supposed) son (“the vicarious atonement of Jesus”). However, it turns out that this Rube Goldberg process for forgiving someone for something they actually haven’t done isn’t good enough. No, you must believe in Jesus, and believe in him the right way, or the entire excruciating sacrifice is all for naught, and you go to hell (“salvation through faith, or grace”). It is not an overstatement to say all of this is a blasphemy to Judaism. Jews worship a God of justice, first and foremost. One who does not condemn people for anything other than their own actions, and is ready to forgive provided the sinner repents and makes amend. The emphasis of Judaism is on how we treat one another, it is a religion of ethics, not faith. (Which is why non-Jews are not bound by the Torah or Jewish Law; provided you are “righteous” in your conduct, it doesn’t matter what you believe or worship. According to Judaism righteous gentiles have an equal share in “the life to come” with the most devout Jews.)

2) Christians worship a triune deity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), and all the metaphysical double-talk cannot change that. Furthermore, many Christians pray to or invest with sacredness objects such as effigies, icons, paintings, crucifixes, crosses, etc. Judaism is a strict monotheism. Such beliefs and practices constitutes idol worship, and a denial of monotheism.

The attempt to transform the Seder from a celebration of and memorial of the Exodus into a celebration of Jesus is an old trick. I remember that when the so-called “Jews for Jesus” got started they pulled that one too. And Christian theologians have long turned somersaults trying to find Christological meaning in the symbols and practices of the Seder. A centuries old version of “spin”.

This is all just a part of the arrogant age-old Christian concept of supercessionism: Judaism has been replaced by Christianity and is no longer valid. It wasn’t true when first declared, and it’s not true now!

Christianity is the daughter of Judaism, but it is no more “the same” as its mother than you, sir, are the same as your father.

I’m sure the Jews and Christians heard in the story both left the Pseudo-Seder (has a nice ring to it) with their beliefs intact. Life is far too short to get all this hot and bothered over it. “Let Us Compare Mythologies”- Where’s Leonard Cohen when you need him!?

Dear Mr. Etaoin Shrdlu

Oh, what pitiful stuff. The breadth and depth of my self professed and profound ignorance is only surpassed by the scope of your myopic and trivial pursuit of meaningless minute. And the horse you rode in on. That I agree with you at many turns is beside the point but it is FAR too easy to bash Christians, a sport in which you and several other atrophied posters take Olympian glee. Your yawningly superior attitude is emblematic of the problem with organized religions today. You have as much interest in the higher qualities of love, tolerance and enlightenment as my dog has with crocheting garden gnomes for her Cat Lovers Anonymous spring picnic. She also knows more about the meaning and purpose of ritual.

While I have zero interest in participating in a Seder ritual (less than zero after reading the previous icky posts) I found the radio segment fascinating. Simple people taking simple delight in a simple ritual that crossed religious boundaries. No one got hurt and no one lost any money. I can almost hear God singing “Oh, what delightful stuff” to the tune of an undiscovered Gershwin melody. Thank you Here & Now for serving up that wee obscure gem of a story.

If you could all just stop comparing apples to oranges for a minute …. oh wait, you can’t! That must be the point of your religious belief. Go ye forth now and spanketh your daughter.

P.S. I am really tempted to sell you a vowel

The segment on “Love As Always, Kurt” was brilliant. Indeed it is impossible to discuss Vonnegut without coming away from the table with some pithy morsel. In light of the “Christian Seder” segment and the listener responses I thought it relevant to repeat a quote from Loree Rackstraw’s book which was read by Robin Young.

I also work in the arts and had to laugh out loud in agreement (or LOLIA in cyberspeak Internet slang).

“What makes them so mad I think, is that I say art is childsplay and it can be discussed in playful, simple language. I’m like a doctor who speaks to patients in words they can understand and thus anger other doctors who imagine mystery and pomposity to be major components of their power and self respect.”

-Kurt Vonnegut, 1987

Oh, what fools they are! They argue over their foolish doctrines while I, Robert Emmett, survey them from the heights of my enlightened philosophy, sipping Pinot Noir and quoting Kirk Vonnegut. Do they not understand that it is all but a masquerade? I don’t have the slightest idea what I’m talking about, but yet I know more than they. I think I’ll go talk pontificate on some higher truths with my dog for awhile. Ta!

Well spake Terry LeBan!!

Let me tweak of few of your truths though:

1. I (the kettle) drink only tea or water while you my dear pontiff (the pot) have the smell of kool-aid about you.

2. I only quote Oscar Wilde in public.

3. My acrophobia informs my philosophy so I usually survey others not from the heights, but from the gutter where I can see the stars.

4. My dog says to tell you not to worry, she suffers fools gladly.

I find the negative reaction to the benign act of celebrating a Christian Passover astounding. The reaction seen on this message board is almost as ridiculous as the opinion voiced above that Christians “steal culture” whereas Judaism remains pure and uninfluenced by Christianity. This is historically absurd which can be demonstrated by examples ranging from Yiddish (a language deeply rooted in German) to the growing importance Chanukah (a relatively obscure holiday until influenced by the importance Christians place on their winter tradition).

As a Christian I would feel honored if Jewish or Muslim families wished to celebrate Easter vigil with slight modifications to conform to their beliefs. Why can we not learn from each others’ faith traditions?

Are the jews complaining of the celebration of a Passover seder by Christians really that insecure in their beliefs?

Come on! Christians believe Jesus, a Jew, celebrated a Passover seder the evening before His crucifiction. Judaism is the root of Christianity. The bulk of the Christian Bible, the Old Testament, is the history of the Jews. Although a person can be a Christian without understanding Jewish history, I’m not sure one can understand Cjristianity without it. Why would Jews object to Christians desiring to learn more about Judasm?

Dear Mr. Emmett:

I was not “bashing” Christians, or Christianity. I was merely pointing out the fundamental differences between these religions. As for a “yawningly superior attitude”, or the qualities of “love, tolerance, and enlightenment” – I guess you skipped over the part of my post where I pointed out that you don’t have to be Jewish to be righteous or meritorious. Maybe I am being smug, but I know of few other faiths (certainly not the fundamentalist brands) that make the same statement. More importantly, it is a critical distinction with most versions of Christianity, where faith is the vital concern. Facts are facts, sir, sneer as you will.

I have no problem with non-Jews attending a Seder. I once held one for my non-Jewish friends precisely so they could understand the meaning and importance of the event. But, I do object to hijacking the Seder, changing its meaning and turning it into a Christian event. That shows disrespect to Judaism, and makes the Seder merely an empty ritual, or worse.

I wonder how many Christians would like it if Jews started “celebrating” Easter, not as the triumphant resurrection of the “Son of God”, but as the memorial service for a Jewish martyr (killed, after all by “godless goyim” – the Romans) who simply stayed dead! Think there might be a few objections raised to that?

Dear David:

I’m not sure what you mean by the accusation about “stealing culture’, I don’t see any prior posts using that term. Nor do I see anyone talking about the “purity” of Judaism. If you studied Jewish history in the Diaspora (the “dispersion”) you’d know that one of the great strengths of Jewish culture (as distinct from the religion) has been precisely borrowing from the culture the Jews found themselves in, and the contributions they made to those cultures in turn.

However, at no time did Jews “pretend” that they were being Christians, nor should Christians “pretend” to be Jews. And certainly neither group should take the ceremonies of the other and transform them to suit their purposes. That does disservice to both faiths.

Distinctions are not inevitably divisive. We can “agree to disagree” on matters of faith, look for the things we have in common, and work together on our common goals. That’s part of what America great, that thanks to the Constitution we can do exactly that.

But as I just wrote to Mr. Emmett, would you really approve of an Easter vigil that denied the divinity of Jesus, that denied the Resurrection, that simply honored him as a Jewish martyr (say as the first of the Six Million)? In short, would you really approve of trashing everything Easter means to Christians? I hope not, else in an act of misguided “ecumenicalism” you will have denied your faith while not really honoring mine. True ecumenicalism means respecting the faiths of others, not necessarily agreeing with those faiths.

Dear Mr. Cole:

“Why would Jews object to Christians desiring to learn more about Judaism?” Your question answers itself. If that was all that was happening there would be no objection. But the story was about infusing the Seder with Christian meaning. That’s not learning about Judaism, that’s a distortion of Judaism.

Again, would you call an Easter service that denies the Resurrection “learning about Christianity”? I don’t think so.

Dear Mr. Shrdlu,

I think your suggestion of celebrating a Jewish Easter is an excellent one. Although I can’t speak for all Christians, I believe a great number of Christians would see the memorializing of Jesus the Jewish martyr as a great symbol of respect. The chance to share cherished traditions with others should be relished regardless of small theological disputes.

Perhaps the sister religions of Judaism and Christianity could learn something from each other.

Dear Mr. Shrdlu

I believe that Christianity is a very multi-faceted faith. On one hand it is essential for Christians to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. However Christians believe that, short of this theological tenant, Jesus also carried a message that all peoples can benefit from.

For instance the Muslim prophet Muhammad accepted Jesus as a prophet but did not accept his death on the cross or resurrection. However, I certainly don’t feel that Islam is “trashing Christianity” when it asserts this. In fact I feel that Islam has benefited by accepting Jesus as a prophet in its own tradition. When I talk to my friends of the Islamic faith this is a always a great starting point for friendly inter-faith dialogue.

As for the comment on “stealing culture”, I was referring to the post by Charles Edwards, on April 22nd, 2009 at 6:00 pm

What the commentators who defend Christian psuedo-seders just don’t seem to get is that it’s not a matter of religious doctrine, it’s a matter of respect. If a group of white people in your town decided to put on a minstrel show,complete with blackface, mammy songs and a parody of Martin Luther King’s “I Have A Dream” speech which actually promoted segregation, would you tell the African American community they should be “tickled and thrilled” that someone was trying to learn from their culture? Or maybe that they were just being small-minded because after all, biologically speaking, there’s really no such thing as race? I guess you probably would. And then you’d pat yourselves on the back for being so open-minded.
As for Robert Emmet’s dog, she must indeed enjoy the company of fools.

Mr. LaBan,

Perhaps I owe an apology,

I never knew that Christianity was as offensive to the Jewish community as Blackface and segregation was to the African American community.

I withdraw my objection.

David,
To really understand you would have had to have spent your life being proselytized by most people who find out you are Jewish, while looking to the Holocaust to know what many people would like to do to you.

Dear Mr. LeBan and friends

Ritual is a boat, not a life raft.

You are the guy who waves to the drowning man from the poop deck. Some people cling to their rituals for security and no matter how aesthetically beautiful they may be they are no more meaningful than setting the dinner table just so or brushing one’s teeth in the morning.

Whether you drink four cups of blood from a skull wearing an apron made of human bones or four cups of wine from a goblet wearing a white kittel, if your higher buttons aren’t pushed and you haven’t set sail for the great beyond, you might as well have spent the night at McDonald’s double checking your mcnugget carton.

Your thin-skinned yet amusingly extremist views, comparing a non-traditional Seder to a racist parody are the reason people have responded to you with such droll good humor. You guys crack me up with thses imaginary comparisons! It’s the 21st century, welcome to the future dear endangered specie. You demand respect without giving it in return and in your quaint black and white view of the cosmos we are merely the fools you suffer on your road, er, cul-de-sac to enlightenment.

To David and Mr. Emmett:

The problem, gentlemen, is that apparently you regard all religious activity as empty ritual, devoid of any meaning. Therefore, it’s perfectly proper to transform the Seder from the story of the Exodus into the story of the Crucifixion, and Easter Sunday into merely “Memorial Day” (and, I guess, it’s okay to turn Memorial Day into a commemoration of traffic accidents)!

Neither the Seder nor Easter Sunday are empty rituals. They have purpose and meaning. You don’t have to agree with the meaning, but true ecumenicalism consists of respecting it. Maybe you want to combine all religions, all beliefs, all philosophies into some kind of bland tapioca, but that is an insult to all!

To Mr. Shrdlu,

First of all, thanks for yet another delightfully bizarre imaginary religious holiday!

We seem to have wildly different definitions of the word “respect”. I would venture to say that my respect for religious beliefs and customs is quite healthy and liberal. One cannot be too liberal I think, when making allowances for things God related. You however, who openly declares what is proper for people of other faiths to practice, as if you have some copyright infringement grievance against use of your private intellectual property, seem to see respect as a one way street. You have yet to demonstrate (through your only device, the imaginary holiday) how the non-Jewish Seder is harmful to any being….human or otherwise.

How amusing to hear you declare that it is “I” who want combine all religions and beliefs into a (bland) tapioca. I rather think of it more as a delicious fruity ambrosia, the cool whipped cream binder being the common denominator and the various fruits myriad slices of divinity.

You can’t have it both ways, there is either one God or there isn’t. You take such great pains espousing your own belief in One God which only begs the question: Who are these other bloody heathens praying to???

Are you right and everyone else a misguided pagan? Your arguments are a massive bundle of contradictions, boldly declaring the one true God, then crying foul when someone dares describe it (Tapioca? Ambrosia!) in their own words rather than yours. You would also seem to have a love/hate relationship with the concept of ecumenicalism. You like the idea in this post while in another it is a most baneful thing.

If there is only one God, perhaps in his/her infinite wisdom he/she/it figured out how to bridge cultural and geographical differences by having as many faces and names as there are peoples. “Oui”, “si”, “ja”, “yes” …. all distinctly different sounding words, using different muscles and scripts ….. are all unambiguously the same affirmation no matter what manner of being utters or hears it.

A ritual in and of itself is neither empty, meaningful or deserving. It depends on what YOU bring to the ritual to breathe LIFE into it….and what you can then take away from it and consequently give back to the world.

That, is the measure of it’s worth, not to one’s own personal conceits, but to all of humanity.